Bestselling author and introverted leadership speaker Jennifer Kahnweiler has just published her new book Creating Introvert-friendly Workplaces. I spoke to her about the book and about introvert leadership in general. Watch the video, listen to the podcast or read the interview below.
In the scientific world, I have seen that there is not one single definition of introversion, so I'm very, very curious to hear your definition of introversion.
Yeah, isn't that interesting? I heard somebody say, well, if you're an introvert, you just know it. I thought that was quite interesting. And my definition actually has emerged in the last 11 or 12 years that I've been working in this area, but it typically has to do with introverts needing time for quiet. That's kind of like the deal breaker. It's like, if you ask an introvert, must you have quiet time, they'll say absolutely. Now if you ask an extrovert, it's like a nice to have versus a must have. So, it goes back to Carl Jung when he talked about energy sources and when I heard that I didn't quite get it, but then after working in this area for a while, introverts get their energy from in their heads, inside themselves, right. That's where they get reenergized. That's where they fill up the battery and the opposite for extroverts. They get deflated if they've not had that people stimulation. Where people get confused is they think introverts don't like people and that's absolutely not true. We're a good example of an introvert extrovert combination and we can check in with each other.
You linked that to the Carl Jung definition. How would you explain that the scientific world has abandoned all of that theory?
I think it depends, like we said, there's two viewpoints.
They don't use Carl Jung and MBTI anymore because it cannot be validated because Carl Jung used to do experiments that you cannot reproduce.
I think we're looking at one section. There's people that feel differently about Myers Briggs. Karolien, I'm a very practical person, so I base a lot of my data and I know you do in your qualitative research and anecdotal research and the thousands of people I've worked with and I really came into this as a Myers Briggs person, and I still am. But I don't base it on testing as much as I do on what people connect with. And I mentioned that my thoughts about introversion have changed. So they haven't changed from the basic energy piece that Carl Jung talked about. There are people that disagree. Absolutely. That's what makes it interesting. But I think the idea of the spectrum is what I like to bring into discussions. And we hear about that in other elements of neurodiversity. Think about it as a bell curve. People can relate to that. Cause most people are more towards the middle. They can go back and forth. They do prefer one over the other. This is what I found.
Some people use the term ambiversion now. And when I'll ask an audience and after explaining what the difference is, between introvert, extrovert and ambivert, I just look at what people relate to and people do tend to identify with one or the other. Now we do have outliers, like in any bell curve, you have outliers and I kind of laugh about it, but some introverts will say to me, I am a hermit. Morra Aarons Mele, you may have read her book Hiding in the Bathroom, she is a proud hermit. She is very much on the very extreme, introverted side. And then you have extroverts. I have several friends who never stop, busy, busy, busy, always have to be stimulated, have to be talking, have to be out there. So that's kind of where I've evolved with that. I don't know if you have found that in your work with clients, that they identify with one or the other. What's been your experience?
"I just look at what people relate to and people do tend to identify with one or the other."
Well, some introverts only discover that they are introverted when I explain to them what it is. They say okay, so that is what it is. They had this feeling that there was something that they could not put their finger on.
Yes. I was a career counselor for many years, a career coach and that's one of the other influences how I got into this work. I was working in companies and I knew about Myers Briggs. And I had that notion about what an introvert and extravert is. It was so helpful to me in my marriage and my relationship as a young married woman, spouse, I kind of laugh about it. My husband used to drive me crazy. Then I realized when he would go into his cave that was absolutely necessary. Right. So I started working in organizations and I kept seeing people being frustrated because they didn't fit in. And you saw that too. I'm sure that they didn't fit into the norm of the extrovert ideal and they weren't getting the results. They were being kind of passed over, that sort of thing. I had that same experience as you did. And it was very gratifying to see people like all of a sudden, have a title or a name they could identify with. I'm sure you experienced that too. And then our role, right, as coaches is to then say, there's nothing wrong with you, right? The bias that people internalize is very challenging.
So you consider yourself an extrovert. When did you discover that?
I probably always knew it. When I was a young girl, I used to get in trouble for talking in school. I would have to write ‘I will not talk’ a hundred times. That was really effective. I'm saying that facetiously. And I talked to other extroverts, so they used to get in trouble too for that. I came from a family that was for the most part, pretty extroverted. Well, my dad wasn't. So there was a lot of permission to be expressing yourself through words. And when I took the Myers Briggs, that's when I had my aha experience, it all sort of made sense to me. It was so helpful.
You already said it's a spectrum. So you must have some introverted things as well.
We write about what we want to learn and what we are curious about. Now I've written four books on this topic. And you can't help, but tap into that side of yourself, through this journey. I was traveling a lot before and I'd be alone in hotel rooms and say, okay, I'm not going down to the bar. I really don't want to do it. It's not comfortable for me. I'm going to stay here and I'm going to be quiet or I'm going for a walk. And slowly but surely those kinds of experiences and getting into meditation, getting into yoga, all of those Eastern sort of practices, that was the ying and the yang.
And I had a funny experience on this last book with my editor, because he, Steve has been with me since the beginning and he's a real introvert. He's a CEO introverted leader, in fact that's why he paid attention to my first book proposal. Cause he was like, oh, I think I'm an introverted leader. We've been together 12 years now, as far as a partnership and the last meeting I had with him, he said, Jennifer, I have to tell you something. I think you've become an introvert. And I was like, I don't think so, but why do you say that? And he said, well, you come early to meetings, you're listening much more effectively, you're calm. He started naming all these introvert qualities. And I was like, that's worth writing all the books. He was laughing kind of a little too, cause he was kidding me. But I think there was some truth to it. I've evolved and I've developed and we all can. That's what I try to share with extroverts. The ones who will listen. How you can tap into that other side. Have you found that you've been able to really leverage your extroverted qualities?
Yeah, for example, I have started doing improv theater to help me be more spontaneous and not think too much and be in my head all the time. And I really enjoy that.
How has that been? Is it fun?
It's really, really fun because I've discovered that I'm quite strong with words there as well. So I'm making jokes that come out spontaneously. Sometimes I'm surprising myself.
That'll help you in your work. I'm sure that's very cool because extroverts don't really filter that much. They just kind of have it come out and, and introverts admire that, but they also get frustrated on many levels. But that's really cool that you can do that.
Mutual understanding and taking the best bits of both of them and combining that.
Yeah, totally. And people are saying to me now, well, how are the extroverts dealing with the pandemic, they're probably going crazy. And the longer it goes on with quarantine, it is hard for a lot of extroverts and I'm also hearing from them that they're surprised that they're actually enjoying reading books and doing little projects around the house and taking walks and connecting with people one on one, like introverts do. Having long phone conversations, all of these things that they were just keeping to themselves like a hamster in a wheel running all the time. They're like, oh, now I'm forced to do this. And it's quite refreshing to hear that. Have you heard that as well from people?
Yeah. But I figure that some people might be more introverted than they think, because a lot of people confuse it with shyness and that kind of stuff.
What have you learned about that? A lot of people ask about that, you know? What about shyness versus introversion? My experience has been that a lot of introverts were shy or labeled shy because they didn't speak up and they seemed like they weren't comfortable in social situations or in school with parenting, family outings, that kind of thing. And they kind of adopted that label and then it really did affect them and they confused it themselves with introversion.What have you noticed about shyness?
What I've learned is that that is something that you develop after a bad experience, mostly a social experience so that you don't want to get into that situation again. So that is something that you can get rid of. Whereas introversion is mainly inborn.
Yes. Nothing's wrong with it.
I think because the standard is so extroverted, I think introverts keep on telling themselves like, hey, I'm not like that. Which can maybe make them shy because they don't want to be rejected.
Yes. And they don't socialize. Introverts don't socialize the way extroverts do, but again, I'll use my husband as a real benchmark for me to learn. I remember when I first met his mom, she was telling me about Bill and his family was very extroverted. They were always trying to figure him out. And she said, Jennifer, I never could understand because people were always calling him. His friends would ask to play with him, they'd come over, and Bill never spoke. He very rarely, barely spoke. He was so quiet and there was that deeper connection he had with friendship that I still see. It's quite interesting. That's still the case with him and with many introverts. Maybe they don't have many people in their lives, but those relationships are so deep and that's true in the workplace too.
They're very people-centered, very interested in other people. They go really, really deep.
They go deep. Right? Those journalists we were talking about earlier, before we got on, are curious and they really listen and they engage and they don't just keep it at a superficial level. Introverts look at it and they'll say, oh, they can just go in a room and they can just chat people up. And that is a skill. At a party I like to connect with other people and find out what's happening. I'm like a little bumblebee. I like to kind of go and I laugh. I work with introverts and we do these sessions on networking. What do you think the biggest challenge is when you're at these parties?
To not have the impression that you need to speak to everyone?
That's part of it. But also extricating yourself, getting away from one person. Doing it the way that's kind of graceful. We work on things like that. But those parties, if you talk to extroverts, they don't really enjoy them that much either. The introverts network in a deeper way, and they can use social media, they can connect with people on LinkedIn and reach out, to schedule a phone call. so they're planned. Like we are now having a session and learning so much more and getting deeper with their relationship. So I think when we each look at each other, sometimes we're envious. Although extroverts don't appreciate introverts enough, in my opinion.
I think it depends if they know more about what introversion is.
That's the key, Karolien, that's the key. I was running sessions in a company that was very pro introvert. Their diversity and inclusion person was really promoting this. She had me come in, we did keynotes, we did training. I have a book called The Genius of Opposites about how introverts and extroverts make it work, how they get through those battles, to get results. So we were promoting this program and the introverts in the classes said, it's great that we're getting empowered and we're feeling more like we're owning our strengths, our quiet strengths, but then we go back to our teams and we have people talking over us and they don't really get this. And then we started doing classes on it. And guess who showed up? Not the extroverts. We offered it to everybody and the majority of people who came were the introverts, not the extroverts. And I kept thinking, why is that? And I would talk to people.
But they don't have pain yet. Right? I mean, you go and get help on things when you're hurt, feeling there's a need and they don't feel that. People are getting more aware and we're trying to make the case. And that's where my work is now with organizations. If you don't hear from 40 to 60% of your teams, it's not just like a nice thing to do. Think about what you're missing. As far as innovation, creativity, getting results on your projects, getting diverse viewpoints. I mean, the evidence is unequivocal now that when you have diversity on a team, different ways of looking at things, it clearly directly impacts the performance of your company. Absolutely. I mean, there's no question about that anymore. So we have a very strong business case to be made for this, but it's a marathon, not a sprint. It's going to take time.
What made you decide to write your new book Creating Introvert-friendly Workplaces?
Creating Introvert-friendly Workplaces really came and emerged from the lessons that I got from the people that I've been talking with. I have been focusing a lot on helping to empower people through introverted leadership and quiet influence. And as I mentioned, helping introverts and extroverts on teams understand each other. But if we do that, we also have to look at how change really occurs. And at the organizational level, how does it occur in the workplace? Are we asking people who are empowered to then go back to the workplace and have to constantly come up against structures and systems that are not supporting who they are? And so I became very curious about this and I found there was very little, even nothing written. I mean, I wrote a blog post and when I Googled it, that's what came up, my blog post.
So I started, I did a survey and I got 240 responses and I decided based on that to craft questions for interviews. I went out, you mentioned Silicon Valley. I talked to different companies on the phone and also went and did site visits. And I was looking for the biggest concerns that introverts have, where they felt like they were so frustrated and not being supported in their environments. And number two, where were the pockets of inclusion, where were best practices? Those weren't easy to find, but I found them in interviews and by searching.
We got some really compelling results. It was actually a mixed bag, like for instance, 60% of the respondents who were mostly introverts said that remote work was being adopted at their company and this was before Corona. Almost 60% said it was acceptable for people in their companies to work alone. Which was very surprising to me because it was that high. About 30% observed efforts to engage introverts in meetings, and meetings as you've probably heard are pain points all the time. Everybody hates meetings, but especially introverts when they're talked over and not asked about what they think and the planning isn't done ahead of time. There's all kinds of barriers that occur. And then only 34% stated that their culture is supporting introverts in the environment. There were a lot more stats.
So those percentages got me asking more questions, but the real compelling evidence on the survey were the comments. The frustration that spilled over and you and I have seen them, I'm sure you have too on blog posts and on Facebook pages. There's just so much frustration out there. And here's the challenge too. A lot of companies will not know when introverts are leaving because they are unhappy because of the fit. They just leave. They'll leave or they check out. When we talk about productivity, that's the problem. So there I knew there was grist for the mill. There was a lot to explore and so I decided to go out and learn more. And that led me to the companies that I found as I was doing my work.
I get my ideas from everywhere, from listening, from reading like you and found that there were examples of leaders who were very committed to this modeling. And there's lots of examples in the book. And I decided to divide the findings into seven key areas of work. Like leadership communication, remote work, and to look at where the challenges were for introverts, what was being done and what you can do. And that's the third part, in addition to the survey results, finding pockets of inclusion, then I wanted to have a sort of a roadmap that you can go towards as a change agent, because anybody can be a change agent. Anyone can speak up. And so it's been very rewarding and I look at it as a beginning of the conversation. Let's move into this new area, the next stage of the introvert revolution.
"Let's move into this new area, the next stage of the introvert revolution."
So, how would you describe an introvert-friendly workplace?
One that embraces all kinds of personality types, but is aware of introverts and in every dimension asks that question of are we serving the variety of our personality types? Whether it be in training, whether it be in the office space design, just asking those questions, being aware, just like any element of diversity and inclusion, which is really on the minds of a lot of us right now. This question isn't often on the surface or visible. So we need to ask about different elements of diversity, different pairs of glasses. Let's look at age, let's look at gender. Let's look at race. All of these things need to come into it. So an organization has to have that top of mind from the senior leadership. Talking about this and making it a priority and evaluating managers on how well they're doing in this, that makes an introvert friendly organization.
Could you give an example of a company that does that?
There is not one company that does that now. There's pockets that I cite in the book in companies like Bosch and companies like Merck and companies like 84.51. And I think those companies themselves would not say that they're totally introvert-friendly. It's just like saying we're not racist or maybe that's too strong a comparison or how we treat women. We're totally focused on women all of the time. I think again, it's a work in progress, so I'd hesitate to say that there's one company yet. I hope there will be. That's my goal that we could say that these are the top 10, we'll make a list of that. Maybe you and I can work on that together. Internationally. It's happening in different pockets of companies. So I will give you a case example that I actually use in the book. It's a company called 84 51.
Ah, Ryan.
You know him, Ryan?
Yeah.
Fantastic. Well, somebody introduced me to him when I was finishing the manuscript. And he told you about his iTopia right? So they started a group based on Ryan coming up to somebody after a session who was courageous enough to say, this is difficult for me, as an introvert. And he said, you know what, it's difficult for a lot of us introverts to speak up, but there's more issues around this too. They decided to really initiate changes. So you know that and you'll be sharing that. So that's an example of a driver. He's a director and he is a change agent and he's created lots of change agents and the diversity inclusion leads, the HR leads all are on board with this and they're educating everybody about it. Edgar Schein wrote about change and I quoted him in the book. I'm not going to quote him directly, but I'm gonna say his idea was you will not have change until you have it supported from the top. So that's where we're headed. Getting those involved.
Another example for you, Carolyn McGregor. Who is an executive at Merck, the pharmaceutical company. Carolyn had me come in and talk with a group there. A retreat that they had with experienced R&D scientists and who are my peeps, they're probably like yours, they're introverts, right? And so they need to get more educated and get more empowered in all of this. What I learned about Carolyn is she's the executive sponsor of this group and has now gone around the company giving presentations about her introverted leadership style and how she identifies with all the characteristics in her life. As a Scottish Scottish person, as a woman in a leadership position, but all of those things do not compare to the fact that she's an introvert, that's her major identifier. So she gets up and talks about her struggles and how she has overcome those. And I can tell you, the people I spoke with who listened to these talks have been completely bowled over and inspired.
So you get lots of Carolyns talking about this in different companies. And then that gives permission for us. That's how we change cultures one step at a time. But I can tell you, even though there's a lot to be done still and I feel this about the women's movement, cause I'm a real activist with women, I have the advantage of having some years under my belt and working in this space for at least 12 years. And I see a real evolution. I mean, for people like you, there was no such thing as an introvert coach. I had a Wall Street Journal reporter call me early on when I was doing this work and I had written an article about it and she wanted to get my opinion. She goes, okay, this is great. I need some real people. And she said, I can't get anybody to talk to me on the record, who will admit at the C level that they are an introvert. That's introvert bias and I would argue that's still true in many cases.
"She said: I can't get anybody to talk to me on the record, who will admit at the C level that they are an introvert."
Also in your new book, you talk about anti-introvert bias. What kind of bias have you come across during your research?
Wow. So much. It started early on when I was looking at introverted leaders and you might want to share what your experience has been. One of the areas where it really does come up a lot, and I think that it has the most potential for damage is recruiting, hiring and recruiting. That's where I think it emerges in a very serious way, because what we do oftentimes in companies is we don't clarify enough what the competencies are that are actually needed to get a job done and create barriers to people who might not be all smiley and expressive, maybe not communicate as well as they could in an interview. And it's a knockout. They don't even get past the first level.
Think about what we're losing. There were several examples that were shown to me or given to me by some senior HR people who said that they had been changed agents. They had been advocates. They had pushed for people who were not very vibrant and maybe they didn't come across so great, but they knew that they could really do great in the job. They just knew it. And based on their experience, they had all the skill sets, so they would hire them. And then these people soared to the top. But think about that, how many times that happens, where it's implicit bias.
Now, again, taking that recruiting, that was one example. Another one: I was sitting with a group of managers that was looking at their recruiting program. They were taking all aspects of it and they said, you know what? We have people come in and they have to talk to all these groups. We've all been on those interviews. They're exhausting for everybody. And then after the two days we have them do a presentation. They're exhausted. They're not their best. We're knocking those people down, you know? So it's looking at this level of the organization, there's bias.
I was sitting in a training class myself, getting some training at a retreat a few years ago when I kind of had my antenna out and this facilitator goes: we're going to do this. She was very extroverted. We're going to do this and we're going to go there. And then I want you to go meet with this person. I was like: oh, this is bad for everybody. But especially for introverts. And one woman raised her hand and she said: are there any questions you guys, before we're going to go? Then she goes like you're asking us lots of questions. For the introverts in the room, this is just too much. Can we take some time to think, can we write down our responses and reflect? And the trainer was shocked. She said: oh, I guessed you could do that. But of course, when that happened, the results were so much richer.
I've heard so many of these examples where they were just like: let's stop. Do you have an agenda for this meeting? There's so many different aspects. I mentioned there's seven areas I looked at. Each one of these has bias in them. I mentioned the recruiting, I mentioned the workplace. How we design offices. And that's going to be interesting now we're starting to go back to offices. We need more space. You think introverts like that?
More space, not like open plan offices.
More space within the open plan.
A different setup, I would say.
Many introverts talked about how, even though there might've been a quiet room or a separate room to do work in some of the modern open spaces, they were quickly taken over by storage or meetings. So, we're not going to be able to have these small meetings, but who knows? So office space design, I looked at leadership communication, training. Learning and development was another one too. How teams work together. We looked at those seven areas and then gave people some ideas for what they could do.
So you mentioned leadership. Well, what I've seen is the more extroverted leaders often are not really aware of the preferences of introverts. So what would your advice be for extroverted leaders?
I'll tell you just a quick anecdote. I was hired by a technology consulting firm and the person who hired me said to me, listen, I know you're talking about introverted leadership. I want these guys to become extroverts. She didn't really reveal it to me until I got there. Can you imagine? I mean, this is anti-introverted leadership, right? She came out and at least said it, some people are a little more subtle, but they still believe in the extrovert ideal. I kind of laugh with that, but a lot of times it's about just being quiet and listening. And getting to know people, one on one meetings are very important. We know that in effective manager-employee relationships, you need to make that a priority, for coaching, for finding out. Where you can share the mission and vision that you have, that you're trying to execute and can align that with the work of people. We know that in general, but introverts will really appreciate that one-on-one versus doing that always in meetings. So as a leader, you want to look at how you're communicating, how are you setting boundaries, and how are you communicating those expectations?
So an example is working from home. Now I'm hearing from a lot of introverts that they're exhausted, partly because of the Zoom meetings and everything. And there's too many of those, but they're also working all the time and their managers are not helping them set boundaries. They're sending emails at two in the morning. So I think it's really about connecting with all of your employees, but especially your introverts so that you can understand what's going on with them. Cause they're not going to necessarily bring that up to you when they're having concerns and challenges. So making the space for that and not trying to take things over to really listen, right? Let them also communicate to you through writing. One of the things I've been trying to advise people now is to utilize these virtual calls and with Slack and all these programs to use the chat. Don't expect that people just always want to talk.
"I think it's really about connecting with all of your employees, but especially your introverts so that you can understand what's going on with them."
What could introverts do themselves if they work in a workplace that is not that intergroup-friendly, how can they make that a priority?
That's such a good question. First of all, it depends on what the issue is. They need to get in touch with themselves, with the concern and challenges. So that's a little bit broad to say, well, is it not introvert-friendly? You have to analyze what the problem is. Maybe it's not an introvert issue. But if it is, if you're not being heard, for instance, you need to have some allies to kind of talk to them about this and to get clear about having good communication with your manager, with your team. I think one of the things that's been helpful with some of these groups, like I mentioned, the iTopia, I'd like to see more of that. Where introverts can share with other introverts. In the classes that I've taught and facilitated, I would say the most effective piece is the fact that people chat together. What I'm really trying to do now is getting people to talk about their concerns and then problem solving like you do in coaching, to help them figure out a way to approach that leader, to register the concern in real time.
I have a couple of things here that I want to share from the book about being a change agent, I think that can apply here as well. There is a quiz as well that I'd encourage people to take, so they don't get overwhelmed. It's on my website too. Jenniferkahnweiler.com, but it's also in the book and it's helped to kind of figure out where it's going well as far as your team and your workplace are concerned and where there are opportunities to work on things. That would be good. The quizz is on the website too.
So starting conversations is one thing that I talk about, involving other introverts in the research. If we all think that this is not conducive, let's look at what's happening and present a proposal. I remember when I first put something forward when I had small kids and nobody was doing work at home. And I was like, I can't work here every day. I need some flexibility. I need to cut back a little bit. He was like, oh, you're going to really do that. And I made a business case for it. So how can you work with other people to make a business case? And bringing it up in your teams, it's about talking about the elephant in the room and educating other people. It's when people understand this. Then there's much more acceptance, like anything else.
I remember when I was facilitating a workshop on introversion, there was a team that came together from a local university. They had attended it together and it came out in the discussion that they were very frustrated with one of their team members because she never left the office. It was when we had private offices, she never left. She closed her door at lunch and they all wanted to go socialize and hang out together. So they were getting increasingly frustrated with her. I remember her face right now. She turned to them and they were sitting in a row. And she said, guys, I just need alone time. I need to take a break at lunch. I'm an introvert. And if I don't get that break, I'm going to be very tested and frustrated to work with in the afternoon when you are hanging out with me. And they said: really? We didn't know you were an introvert. What does that mean? She started explaining how that showed up for you. It was illuminating. And I did talk with that team afterwards and they told me it was really a breakthrough. It's not a big deal. So that's kind of what we do, right. When people talk, get the elephant out of the room.
So do you see a certain role there for introverted leaders? To put that on the agenda of a company? Because they know so much more about how it is to be an introvert.
I think so, yes. Like I mentioned, Carolyn and others can really make a difference in modeling and leading the way. But I have felt my role as an ally and an advocate is very important too. And we're talking about that a lot now in different areas of diversity, that it's very important to speak up for introverts and to educate yourself about what that looks like. And then question and have that lens of like: are we serving the introverts? When I’m designing this meeting, am I having some breaks in there? Or am I allowing people to just write their thoughts instead of constantly brainstorming, let's do brain writing.
Introverts have told me they have so much gratitude when somebody actually thinks of them and thinks of what's the best way for them to get this information and ask them: how many breaks should we build into this day? Is this working for you? How could we make it more introvert-friendly? So I think together, whether we're introverts or extroverts, we can all make a shift with this idea of inclusivity for introverts.
So how do you think we could create more mutual understanding between introverts and extroverts for them to really see each other's strength instead of what they don't have?
Well, my focus is the workplace and what I'm increasingly realizing is that people relate to stories. They remember stories 22 times more than they do just giving them content, giving them descriptions. Where they resonate is thinking about their family, their friends. And when you can relate it to people and their understanding of why maybe they're coming up against frustrations with their spouse or their child or their sister or brother, and they have that lens to look through, then it's like: oh yeah. I'm thinking about my team right now and who might be introverts or extroverts. Let's bring this up. Let's do an assessment. Let's see the composition of our team. Do we have enough diversity? They start asking the questions once they can personally relate. So that's been my biggest learning throughout all this. This is important content. We all need to be talking about this.
Make it personal. That's a really good idea indeed to make it very relatable for other people. So what is your end point? When is your work done here?
When is my work done? You mean looking ahead in the future?
Yeah. Like what do you want companies to achieve in this field of introversion and being introvert-friendly?
I want us not to have to keep educating people that introversion is a part of how we define ourselves, our teams, as one aspect of it that's totally accepted and embraced. That's looked at as a strength. That our systems are all designed within the workplace to include introverts so that we have a balanced workforce, just like within ourselves where we're balanced and we're tapping into both sides. We're able to tap into all the beautiful strengths of introverts, extroverts, ambiverts and everybody else. It's a very beautiful picture as I look ahead.
I'm looking forward to that. Thank you so much for taking the time today.
Thank you so much for your work and for having me.
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